Most Comforting LIE: The Denial of an Eternal Hell

Hellfire

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Matthew 9:43-48

Look at how many time Jesus Christ reiterates this point! Hell is a place of eternal suffering that will not be quenched! Remember how the bible repeats things three times for emphasis?

Here Jesus repeats it 5 times! But what sayeth the Chapel?

“We know man can kill our earthly bodies, but only our Father in heaven has the power to wipe out the existence of the soul… God’s emotions are so much greater than you can even imagine, and to roast one of his own children day and night would be something only Satan would conceive of.” – SOURCE: Shepherd’s Chapel, Newsletter #151

Because of teachings like this many are hell right now awaiting the lake of fire judgment.

In November of 2004, the Holy Spirit began to intensely convict me. I had just gotten a CD called “Consuming Fire” from the Chapel. In it for the first time I learned about their ideas about hell which aren’t biblical at all…

Now, I had accepted just about everything Murray had taught to this point but I had never encountered his position on annihilationism. I always assumed that it was as Jesus said it would be… eternal suffering. I didn’t know he taught this, I was shocked and couldn’t accept it because I knew in the core of my being it was wrong.

Annihilationism is the doctrine that there is no literal eternal conscious hell. God simply casts lost humanity into the lake of fire and they are burnt up and cease to exist, like “fat dripping into the fire and going up in a puff of smoke” as Murray would say.

As I listened to this message I began to realize that Murray was very wrong and this would begin an intense period of torment in my life where I would come to question everything the Chapel taught. In March of 2005, the dam broke and I rejected him and his teaching fully and profoundly as I have detailed here on the blog.

Does the bible teach that souls cease to exist once they are cast into the lake of fire or does it teach eternal conscious torment? It matters! Eternity is FOREVER!

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” – Matthew 25:46

It’s pretty clear, don’t you think?

And frankly, if you subtract this reality from your gospel presentation then really nothing is at stake anyway… you didn’t ask to exist, live like you want and when you die, it’s over. So what if you’re a wicked unbeliever, there’s no real impetus on you to believe… for many unbelievers this is simply what they expected after death anyway.

If you are a devout follower of false religion you are in danger of perdition, know this: HELL LASTS FOR ETERNITY AND YOU WILL BE CONSCIOUS OF IT – AND YOU WILL NOT LIKE IT!

JESUS CAME AND SHED HIS BLOOD TO SAVE YOU FROM THE WRATH TO COME DUE TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR SIN! Chapel students seem to think they are above needing God’s grace in this life because of their performance against Satan in the first earth age… BLASPHEMY!!!

It’s shouldn’t be hard to see that false teachings like this will lead a person straight to hell. And there are many false teacher awaiting judgment in Sheol today for these things. Let that thought sober you up a little!

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Author: Timothy Campbell

Independent researcher exposing Joel's Army / Latter-Rain Movement, Christian evangelist and helping to expose the plot of the ages - the church will be here during the great tribulation (or Golden Age of Gaia) and will have resist the beast and his mark...

30 thoughts on “Most Comforting LIE: The Denial of an Eternal Hell”

    1. That is a lie, the lake of fire is literal and taught as such. It repersents eternal destruction. i ask anyone here to research in your own bible how many times it is said that sin equals death. Christ conquers death, another name for satan. Fear not him who can destroy your flesh, but he who can destroy your soul. The wages of sin is death, the gift of god is eternal life. After you have explained the next scriptures, we can talk again.
      John 5:24
      Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
      KJV

      John 8:51-52
      Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

      52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
      KJV

      Rom 6:16
      Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
      KJV

      Rom 6:21-23
      What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

      22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

      23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
      KJV

      Rom 7:5-8:6
      For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
      6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
      7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
      8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
      9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
      10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
      11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
      12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
      13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
      14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
      15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
      16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
      17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
      18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
      19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
      20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
      21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
      22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
      23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
      24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
      25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
      8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
      2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
      3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
      4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
      5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
      KJV

      1 Cor 15:26
      The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
      KJV

      1 Cor 15:51-57
      Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

      52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

      53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

      54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

      55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

      56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

      57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
      KJV

      2 Cor 1:9-10
      But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

      10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
      KJV

      2 Cor 2:15-17
      For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

      16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

      17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
      KJV

      2 Tim 1:10
      But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
      KJV

      Heb 2:14-15
      Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

      15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
      KJV

      James 1:14-15
      ut every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

      15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
      KJV

      James 5:20
      Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
      KJV

      1 John 5:16-20
      If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

      17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

      18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

      19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

      20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
      KJV

      Rev 1:18
      I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
      KJV

      Rev 2:11
      He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
      KJV

      Rev 2:21-23
      And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

      22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

      23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
      KJV

      Rev 6:8
      And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
      KJV

      Rev 18:1-9
      And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

      2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

      3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

      4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

      5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

      6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

      7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

      8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

      9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
      KJV

      Rev 20:6-15
      Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

      7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

      8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

      9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

      10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

      11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

      12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

      13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

      14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

      15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
      KJV

      Rev 21:8
      ut the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
      KJV

      NT:615

      KJV – put to death, kill, slay.

      NT:2288

      KJV – deadly, (be … death.

      NT:684

      KJV – damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.

      Heb 10:39

      39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
      KJV

      2 Peter 3:7
      But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
      KJV

      Rev 17:8-11

      8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

      9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

      10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

      11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
      KJV

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    1. I take it you mean eternal – what does the bible say? Matthew 25:46 – “everlasting punishment”, what does that mean? The bible teaches hell is conscious and eternal, Murray teaches annihilation.

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      1. What does it say about death and Hell being cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation and then I would like to hear your answer… THX

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  1. Jesus spoke the Greek word “Gehenna”, which our English translators translate as “hell”. Neither the Greek or English words meant “place of eternal torment”. The English word for Hell means “To cover, to conceal”.

    Easton’s Bible Dictionary defines Gehenna as: “(Originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., “the valley of the sons of Hinnom”), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6 ). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction.”.

    This valley of Gehenna was what Jesus was referring to. He most likely used it metaphorically. And He certainly was not referring to Dante’s Inferno. This valley was a place where a) idolatrous child sacrifices by fire occurred and b) dead bodies were dumped and then consumed by worms (naturally) or fire (cremation. This explains Jesus’ references to undying worms and unquenchable fire. These were not torture devices, but consuming agents. Clearly destruction and death were intended to be referred to, not torment. It was a garbage dump, not a torture chamber.

    Many claim that Gehenna gradually became a metaphor for eternal torment. However, no one can describe how this came to be. It is an assumption that is passed off as fact. The Old Testament never taught eternal torment or hell, and when the valley of Gehenna is referenced it is always speaking of everlasting shame and destruction. Jews highly valued proper burial, and to be thrown in a garbage dump upon death would’ve been considered highly shameful.

    Even if Gehenna came to mean a place of eternal torment, it must have come from pagans, not the inspired Scriptures. Do we believe that Jesus was affirming the pagan thought of the day? The Persian and Greek concepts of hell predate Jesus. So either Jesus was agreeing with Persian and Greek religious thought or He was referring to Gehenna as it occurs in the Old Testament.

    Therefore, “hell” is a real place. It is the valley of Gehenna south of Jerusalem. If you want to draw a eschatological metaphor from it, it should be based off of the characteristics of the valley. Death and destruction seem to be the emphasis, not eternal torment.

    “eternal fire” must be understood as consuming, not tormenting. For example, Jude 1:7 says Sodom and Gomorrah “are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”. 2 Peter 2:6 says: “He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;”. They were reduced to ashes. Destroyed. And Jude says that is our example of the effects of eternal fire.

    Matt. 13:50 speaks of a blazing furnace, not hell. This is quite different from the garbage dump of hell (Gehenna) that Jesus spoke of. What does a furnace do? If you throw something in the furnace it is burned up; not tormented forever. Matthew 3:12 says: “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”. We can see that He will “burn up” the chaff. This is natural. Jesus’ audience understood that fire consumes, not torments.

    And again, the worm and fire clearly relate to the valley of Gehenna as a place of decomposition of corpses. For proof, Isaiah 66:24 says: “Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”. Notice they are looking at corpses who can’t feel the worms or fire.

    One often overlooked fact is that the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 was not in hell. The word was not the one Jesus used for hell. This was the Greek word Hades (meaning “grave”), not Gehenna. Revelation 20:14 says that “Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death”. The King James version shows the confusion of terms: “Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death” (Rev 20:14). WOW! According to the KJV Hell will be cast into the lake of fire! And since you define the lake of fire as hell, this would mean hell is cast into hell. Therefore, hell is NOT eternal if Hades is Hell. The rich man could not have been in an eternal hell. It is not possible. I wrote about this parable in depth on my blog, where I show that Jesus was not teaching truth about the afterlife here. That wasn’t Jesus purpose with the parable. To use it to teach an eternal hell is not accurate and an imposition on those who do not understand the Greek context.

    It is taken for granted that nowhere in the Bible is the phrase “eternal torment” found. Neither is anyone warned of an “eternal hell”. The Apostles and Paul never once used the word hell or warned people of it. The gospel of John doesn’t include the word. The OT doesn’t include it (except for the KJV). Hell only occurs 13 times in the Bible, while Heaven occurs more than 400 times. The words destruction, destroy and destroyed occur over in total over 1,200 times. Even when the Bible says that men are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) it does not say specifically what happens to them. Satan and his angels will be tormented (Rev 20:10), however, Death and Hades are also cast in (Rev 20:14). And it is universally believed that they will be destroyed, not eternally tormented. It is also interesting that men are cast in directly after Death and Hades. To know what happens to them, we can look at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of eternal fire in Jude 1:7. Also, the phrase “second death” is clearly used of men (Rev. 21:8) and of Death and Hades (Rev 20:14) but interestingly NOT used of Satan and his demons, who will be tormented. Satan and his demons are thrown in before the judgment. Afterwards Death, Hades and ungodly men will be thrown in. Because of all the evidence, destruction and death is the obvious outcome for men. Hence the phrase “second death”.

    Matt. 10:28 says to “fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell”. The word for destroy is apollumi. Strongest Greek word for destruction. Implies utter annihilation. If Jesus meant to say eternally torment, He used the wrong word. Paul said “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” (Rom 6:23). A corpse cannot be tormented. Thus everyone would have to receive eternal life. If I were to say “Tommy is dead”, you would not assume I meant “Tommy is alive and miserable.”. Logic clearly says that we are saved from death, not hell. Obviously the ungodly will die twice, hence the “second death” in the lake of fire; which is final.

    These are plain facts. No need to say annihilationists are in hell. My gosh. The Bible never said that we go to hell if we don’t believe in it! If we believe in Jesus that’s what matters.

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    1. So you don’t believe in a literal conscious eternal hell? If you teach this and tell someone to believe the gospel then you are preaching an absurd gospel. There is no real urgency to believe… no wrath to come – but the bible is very clear about hell. You will have to answer to God on Judgment Day for telling people there is no hell.

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      1. Of course I do not believe in something that is contrary to what Scripture teaches. Remember that you also will be held accountable for teaching that God tortures men forever when the Bible never said so. You say that “the Bible is very clear about hell” yet do not seem to have any argument against my points. Maybe the Bible is clear and you are the one who is wrong. BTW the gospel without hell is the gospel the Apostles and Paul preached. Take it up with them. Good luck trying to find them talking about hell because they never did. How about we all extend a little grace towards others who have legitimate arguments from Scripture.

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    2. 100 % correct. I was so relieved to see someone teach the truth. The words have been mistranslated for centuries. Thank you for your comment because it’s the TRUTH.

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  2. I don’t think it’s a legitimate argument. Do you want me to give you scripture? As if that would make you change your mind? Okay.

    (Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    How many do you want?

    (Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    (Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    More?

    (Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    There’s at least three people who will be in the lake of fire in conscious eternal torment. If you continue on in that chapter you will see that many more join them.

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    1. Your reading from the King James Version which was mistranslated purposely to control the masses. What a God you serve. A psychopathic torturer. The copies of the Original Scriptures never used the word HELL. It was mistranslated.

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  3. LOL this is the problem with traditionalism. Total lack of exegetical proof that theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation. I don’t know if you are aware, but annihilationists have interpretations of these verses. Let me cover all the ones you brought up (even while you ignore the verses I posted).

    YOU: “(Mat 25:46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

    The problem is in the nature of the word “eternal”. Traditionalists believe it strictly refers to duration. However, this is not consistent with biblical usage. Mark 3:29 refers to blaspheming the Holy Spirit as being an “eternal sin”. If “eternal” always refers to duration, “eternal sin” would be a sin of infinite duration. Yet it is clear that what Jesus was referring to is the eternal effect of the sin (“whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness”).

    And this is not the only example. Hebrews 6:2 refers to “eternal judgment”. If this is referring to duration, God will be judging men for all eternity. This contradicts the notion of a single “judgment day”. God will judge men and the effect of the judgment will be eternal.

    How about “eternal redemption”? Hebrews 9:12 says that Jesus “entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”. Here it is clear that Jesus already obtained eternal redemption once and for all. He will not be redeeming mankind for all eternity. The effects of the redemption are eternal.

    Let’s look at another one. Revelation 14:6 refers to an angel preaching an “eternal gospel”. This is obviously not a gospel of eternal duration (wouldn’t make any sense), but a gospel of eternal effect.

    Quoting the phrase “eternal punishment” is not enough to override substantial evidence that the word eternal can NEVER be proven to refer strictly to eternal duration. Unless it can be proven that all of the above examples refer to eternal duration and not eternal effect. Matt. 25:46 is used as a cheap defense of a doctrine without exegetical backbone.

    YOU: “(Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

    Let’s look at the context. Those who quote this passage to defend eternal torment only show that they have not done their research.

    1) This is referring only to those who received the mark of the beast during tribulation. So it cannot be proven to refer to all the wicked.

    2) This does not refer to their torment as lasting forever, but the smoke of their torment; which indicates enduring shame and destruction. Revelation 19:3 refers to the smoke of Babylon’s burning (the world system) going up forever and ever. This burning of Babylon is witnessed by wicked men (Rev. 18:8-9) which proves that it is not the final judgment. It also precedes the final judgment in Rev. 20.

    3) It says they will be tormented “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”, which contradicts every idea of hell being away from the presence of the Lord. It blatantly contradicts 2 Thessalonians 1:9: “These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”.

    4) The context is so far removed from the final judgement (6 chapters) that it can only viewed as referring to the immediate context of destruction on earth before the Millennial kingdom.

    YOU: (Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

    There’s at least three people who will be in the lake of fire in conscious eternal torment. If you continue on in that chapter you will see that many more join them.

    1) You referred to these as “three people” which is a blatant mistruth. This is Satan and two of his demonic cohorts. They are not humans by any stretch of the imagination.

    2) You use the fact that these three fallen angelic beings are tormented to suggest that everything thrown in the Lake of Fire is tormented. But this cannot be proven. In fact the opposite is true.

    In Revelation 20:10 Satan and his angels are cast in. Then verse 14 says: “Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”

    If we are to interpret this according to logic, we must conclude that either:

    a) everything cast into the lake of fire is tormented,

    b) nothing cast into the lake of fire is tormented,

    or

    c) some things cast into the lake of fire are tormented.

    We can eliminate b, as Satan and his angels will be in torment. That leaves a and c. If a is true, then we have to conclude that “Death and Hades” will be tormented forever in the lake of fire. I will quote Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges here:

    “They are enemies of God, 1 Corinthians 15:26, and to be destroyed at Christ’s triumph, ib. 54. But though no doubt presented to St John as individual demon figures (see Revelation 6:8), we are probably not to understand that they are real persons, like the Devil and those represented by the Beast and the False Prophet: and hence we are not told that, like them, they continue to exist in torment in the lake of fire.”

    It is assumed that Death and Hades are not real persons, but figures. And furthermore, it is universally thought that they will cease to exist! And I will insist that everyone who believes the lake of fire strictly represents eternal torment should be consistent, and acknowledge that Death and Hades (“hell” in the KJV) will be tormented forever and ever.

    We can conclude that only some things cast into the lake of fire are tormented, and that some are destroyed and cease to exist. Now let’s add humans to the mix in the next verse:

    “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

    The chapter ends on this note. Nowhere does it say they are tormented like Satan and his angels. In fact, they are shown as being thrown in directly after Death and Hades; which are destroyed. And this is a good five verses separated from Satan and his angels. Death, Hades and men are successively thrown in after the judgment, while Satan and his angels are thrown in pre-judgment. Also the phrase “this is the second death” is used of Death and Hades, but not of Satan and his angels. And then in the following chapter it is used of the men cast in:

    “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

    Seems odd to include the phrase “second death” if it has nothing to do with the first death, but rather is an eternal life of misery.

    I think it is clear that traditionalists have no way to prove their interpretations, and prefer to simply take unrelated verses out of context to prove their doctrine.

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  4. Not really, I’m familiar with the arguments you put forth and I don’t agree with them. You conceded that Satan and his cohorts are in a literal conscious hell forever – how is it a stretch for human beings to find themselves in the same state for unbelief and rejecting Christ? I don’t like the thought of an eternal conscious hell either friend but I’m not about to go twisting scripture to make it seem to say something that makes me feel better about the fate of lost individuals.

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    1. I’m not against diversity of interpretation in the church. However, it was you who chose to to call the annihilationist view a “lie”. So I would expect that you could back up the traditional dogma. Yet so far there has been no substance put forward for your position. Do you have ANYTHING substantial to contradict my reasoning besides merely quoting passages I addressed?

      You wrote: “You conceded that Satan and his cohorts are in a literal conscious hell forever – how is it a stretch for human beings to find themselves in the same state for unbelief and rejecting Christ?”. First of all this is not even a argument, but rather a philosophical “if A is true, why can’t B be true.”. A Universalist could say “If some humans will be in Heaven forever – how is it a stretch for all human beings to find themselves in the same state because Jesus is the Savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10)?” However, we both know that would not form a convincing argument for Universalism (I’m not a Universalist and neither are you). So how can that type of argument be used to prove hell? I would respond that yes it’s not a stretch to think it possible that men could suffer the same fate as Satan if that had biblical evidence; however it does not.

      Let me pose the opposite question to you: if Death and Hades will cease to exist after being thrown in the lake of fire, how is it a stretch for human beings to find themselves in the same state?

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  5. I have not thought of this subject for a while, but tend to have been swaying toward destruction of soul & body. I heard the arguments, & believe that you certainly can stand more on the side of annihilationist scripturally, although it’s not perfect. With that said, how about looking at God as, truly having these three characteristics. He’s love, he’s merciful, & just. I admit that my mind is quite lacking to God, but God did reason with Abraham, about the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, & God even ended up doing around what Abraham thought was right. Also we find God says in Isaiah come let us reason together. That being said with this lacking mind that only God gave me, I have problems after 40 years of following Christ that this eternal torment doctrine, comes from a God that is truly loving, merciful, or even just.

    If on the other hand the punishment, is everlasting shame, & capital punishment in the lake of fire being destroyed, its a fair punishment in my mind (just); there’s also measures of love & mercy. If ones actions, merited a greater punishment there could be a slower process or whatever. It’s no small thing. Your still forever, shamed, damned, lost, & you will not possess the immortality that God would of freely given you through faith in Christ. It’s at best a horrible destruction.

    How about what Jesus did; if my punishment was truly capitol punishment for my sins, then Jesus has completely fulfilled that, in that fact that he died for my sin. When Jesus graphically talks about the worm not dying & the fire never quenched, we can wag our heads, wondering what in the world he’s talking about, but we could also go to Isaiah & see the practical usage of worms not dying & fire not being quenched with these corpses, written about. This also is scripture. Worms eat corpses, that makes sense.

    Is this not problematic; quite so. First all of the major denominations seem to hold to the eternal punishment in the sense that it goes on & on. Also it does to me, take some of the urgency away from the consequences of not accepting, Christ in evangelism efforts. Those also are real thoughts.

    One thing I seen in scripture though, is the only people that it alludes to eternal punishment is those that worship the beast, etc. it also refers to Satan, beast & false prophet. Other than that you have people cast into the lake of fire, but it doesn’t really say they are not destroyed.

    A final thought; You have a Sunday school teacher, one problem she trusted in he own righteousness; didn’t accept Christ fully the way she needed to. After forty billions years of her being tormented, which one is God, loving, merciful, or just. Which one of us, & we being evil, would not put her out of her misery. I’ve been asking myself Is it just possible somehow we got something wrong with this doctrine? If we have plenty of scripture, could it be we are doing God a greater dis-service as Zach has said, believing the doctrine of eternal conscience torment.

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      1. Well, as I said in my other statement, I haven’t come to a full decision on these issues, but personally I believe there could be some big differences between Satan & mankind’s natures. I don’t see anything that says that Satan & the fallen angels were temporal beings. Then you have the lake of fire being created for them. On the other hand man appears in the book of Genesis, to choose death (the tree of the knowledge of good & evil), instead of the tree of life. Then once they’re in sin; God throws them out of the garden, & puts the flaming sword guards by the tree of life so that they wouldn’t eat of it. I would wonder if this wasn’t to keep them from living forever in the fallen state. That could have been a tremendous act of mercy. But what do we do, we ignore all of that & just say man lives forever, probably because Socrates & Plato instilled it into societies thinking more so than because of God’s word. Also because he lives forever he’s tormented forever if lost.
        I find it very curious in that when it talks about Satan, the beast, & false prophet there’s no talk of the second death but torment, but when it refers to mankind, being cast into the lake of fire, it more than once refers to it as the second death. Horrifying destruction it is; but possibly a bit of mercy in it. Is it so bad that there’s a bit of mercy in it though? I mean after all doesn’t scripture often say God is a merciful God. I believe that Satan could be an eternal being thus suffering ECT, but man could meet a horrific destruction in damnation, or receive the gift of immortality through Christ. I believe there’s a lot of scripture that leans in that direction. To my understanding there’s a division of thinking on whether Satan & his fallen angels suffer ECT, even amongst Conditional Mortality believers. On the other hand if there’s some 30,000 Christian denominations, would that be so hard to accept?

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      2. We have radically violated the holy law of an infinite God. We have in incurred a debt we cannot repay – God demonstrates the highest expression of Love that can be by sending His son to die… wicked sinful tramples God’s law, spurns His Son and then presumes that this is no great offense. They will be in hell for eternity, we don’t grasp the magnitude of the crime and our wickedness – that’s why hell makes no sense to most

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    1. Your completely on the RIGHT track. If our God is an all-knowing, all loving & omnipotent God… First of all, why would he create Satan knowing what he would do from the beginning. That has always been my biggest question. I believe everything that you are writing. Furthermore, I don’t believe that my God is a psychopathic torturer… that would make God no better than Satan.
      The biggest scripture or I should say the most well-known scripture is John 3:16 so let’s use that for an example… as we all know it says, ” that whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life”. It doesn’t say whosoever believeth in me shall not spend eternity in Hell Fire. AND… If he meant our fate or the non-believers fate was eternity in hell.. why is it so confusing. ?? Why didn’t he plainly, WITHOUT QUESTION, NOR CONFUSION say what Our Fate would be and talk about it more then he spoke of Heaven? HELL was never in the original copies of the scripture. It was mistranslated to control the masses. Hebrew wrote the Old Testament and the Greek wrote the New Testament… The mistranslation seems to be working because people are choosing God for fear of burning in hell for eternity. I don’t believe that for a minute. I Don’t believe the God that I worship is not a loving God… quite the contrary.
      Why must people believe in a God that would torture people forever and ever??? When I know that most of us that’s all anyone including people that we don’t even care to be around burning in flames… We would pull them out.

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  6. You say your current spiritual mentor is RC Sproul, correct? Is this the same Sproul identified in the Madison Adultery website scandal?

    I started watching Shepards Chapel about a year ago and found both Arnold and Dennis to be excellent teachers of the bible.

    There is always going to differences in opinion on various interpretations of the gospel. Bottom line, it is the individual walk we each take with the Lord that matters. Humans are ALL flawed, including me, you sir, and all who teach. Some more than others.

    Thank you Pastors Arnold and Dennis who provided and still provide the best teaching possible and for enriching my walk with the Lord.

    I have learned THE WALK is not in a straight line, many zigs and zags, many detours, and taken with many teachers along the way.

    And Timothy, right; wrong; or in different, thank you for prompting these needed discussions, you are also a part of this most important journey in personal discovery and our INDIVIDUAL walks with the Lord.

    I will pray the Lord provides you wisdom with this journey you have chosen to take.

    Take care and May God Bless us All.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi Ike, you are sadly informed about Dr. RC Sproul, that was his son, go do your homework. He also never had an affair… he was promptly suspended from Ligonier as a result. Never studied with him. All I can tell you with the Chapel is watch where you step – there is a large pit involved.

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  7. An Eternal Hell, It’s simple. When the condemned soul is cast into the lake of fire it’s destroyed for eternity. Why is that so hard to grasp, Tim?

    Liked by 1 person

  8. The only one judged to perish thus far is Satan.The lake of fire comes after the judgment of all soals.To those who overcome those soals are blotted out.Heaven wouldn’t be watching a loved one in eternal torment.Christ said”I have foretold you all things.His Word is complete.
    Have you read it?

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  9. God is willing that all men be saved, and nowhere does He contradict Himself by willing that some will NOT be saved. “The Lord… is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally, as even “the righteous perish” temporarily, Isaiah 57:1], but that all should come to repentance” (II Peter 3:9. See also Phil. 2:10). It is God’s goodness which brings us to repentance (Rom. 2:4).

    Jesus said: “And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME” (John 12:32). Are there any to whom Christ’s sacrifice does not apply? “And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sin of the whole world” (I John 2:2). But the Church teaches that Jesus is only the “potential” Saviour of the world since there are those whose sins will supposedly never be taken away.

    Don’t we read in Heb. 10:26, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,”? Yes, that’s true, but that does not doom that person to an eternal punishment and torture in some hell. Notice there is a comma (,) at the end of that verse. Let’s read the rest of it:

    “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and FIERY indignation, which shall devour the adversaries” (Heb. 10:27).

    Yes, there are sins that will not be forgiven in this lifetime, but will rather be judged in the day of God’s Judgment upon the whole wicked world. That will not be a happy time for those who will have their sins judged in that manner, but neither will it be a pit of eternal torture in fire for no purpose.

    Notice:

    “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men everywhere to repent. Because He hath appointed a day [no, not in this Church age, but in the ‘appointed day’], in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man [Jesus] Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead” Acts 17:30-31).

    Ah yes – God will purify all men, all humanity, “…like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap” (Mal.3:2). The fires of judgment are spiritual fires that purify and refine the hearts and spirits of mankind. These fires do not burn and torture men’s physical flesh for all eternity which would accomplish nothing but to make an evil alien monster out of God. God may be stern, but He is no monster.

    “For OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE” (Heb. 12:29).

    God is “the furnace of fire,” “the unquenchable fire,” “the eonian/age-abiding fire,” “the flaming fire,” “the Gehenna [hell?] fire,” “the baptizing fire,” “the lamps of fire,” and “the lake of fire,” and as fire purifies and refines, so likewise, God “Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming fire” (Psalm 104:4).

    And why does God make His ministers flames of fire? Because we too are to Judge the world, and judging involves refining and purifying:

    “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world, and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (I Cor. 6:2)

    SINNERS AND SAINTS WILL BOTH BE “IMMERSED” IN FIRE

    God’s chosen Few are instructed to be a sacrifice – a living sacrifice:

    “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service” (Rom. 12:1)

    Does the Bible teach that “fire” is for the wicked and unrepentant sinners only?
    Get ready for another Scriptural shock. God puts all His Believers through fire and salt:

    “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt” (Mark 9:49).

    “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire” (Matt. 3:11).

    “Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Mark 3:12).

    An “unquenchable” fire is not an eternal or everlasting fire, but rather a fire that is not quenched. That is, it will be allowed to burn or purify until it’s purpose is accomplished. (See, Jer. 17:27; Ezek. 20:47; Jude 1:7). Although these fires are called “eternal” or “non-quenched” fires, they are no longer burning today. They burned out on their own.

    James said we should count it all joy when we are severely tried (James 1:2-3), and Peter said:

    “That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ” (I Peter 1:7).

    Yes, Jesus paid the penalty for sin in full, yet it remains to take away the sin out of the sinners. Yes, Jesus is the Saviour of the world, but they don’t know it yet.

    Liked by 1 person

  10. Again this must be stated because so many keep their heads in the sand and keep those blinders on tightly. THERE IS NO HELL. Did you read that clearly? There is no hell, never was. It was created by someone to be put in the Bible in order to control the population. Simple. God is love, period, end of story. He created us, not hell. When we pass there is only love and being together, no punishment. We are innocent souls, not the inhumane persons we were in our Earthly bodies. Nothing we do here counts “over there.” Breathe easy, all is as it should be once we pass.

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